Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Loop Marketing podcast where we deep dive into the strategies, trends and innovations that are shaping the marketing world today. I'm your host, Elise Stieferman, and today we have an incredible conversation lined up for you. Joining us is Natalie Carson, account supervisor at Coegi, and Terry Sullivan, founder and president of Strategic Glue, a consultancy that's based here in St. Louis, where I am as well, and who has been a great partner for us on a lot of client work at Coegi. So in this episode, we're going to explore the power of client connections and why fostering strong relationships is definitely key to driving effective marketing strategies. And that doesn't matter if it's, you know, just focusing in on the client's needs or aligning with their strategic vision or collaborating for their long term success. Those partnerships and building up those relationships can truly elevate a brand's marketing efforts. So let's go ahead and dive in. I'd love to start with thinking about what it means to truly know your client. So, Terry, you know, how do you go about diving into your client's business and specifically, you know, things about their customer data, whether it's their age or their job or their industry, and being able to tap into those specific business challenges and, you know, what's motivating that client?
[00:01:25] Speaker B: That's a great question. Thank you for having me on today, by the way.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: Absolutely. Happy to have you.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Well, you know, it obviously depends on the business, at least for me, but typically I do a deep dive from the get go.
Again, I deal with, you know, small to medium sized businesses primarily.
But even if it's a larger business, part of my, you know, operating procedure, if you will, is to do a deep dive with certainly the employees. If I'm dealing with an owner or a CEO, a lot of the times that deep dive will also include, you know, what their personal mission is or what they're trying to get done with whatever effort is, you know, in front of us. But I think the whole idea of connecting with them is an important one because primarily it's always going to be, hey, we want to drive revenue, we want more customers, all of those things.
But if you go a couple layers deeper, you're going to find that there's something else that they're trying to achieve either internally or externally or personally. And so I always try to, to get as deep as I can with those conversations.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Absolutely. And sometimes when you're interviewing or talking to multiple stakeholders, everybody's kind of got their own goals and their own things that they're trying to drive into. So, Natalie, I know that you have worked across a lot of different clients here at Coeggy, all different industries, things like that.
You know, what has your experience been and being able to dive into those different business challenges and being able to understand those motivations and aspirations and how they maybe change a little bit from industry to industry.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Very similar to what, you know, Terry said. I think a lot of it has to do with who you're speaking with. Like, yeah, they're your client, but they're also a human being and they have their own passion points and things that they work on day to day. And so, for example, and kind of like Terry said, like, at the end of the day, most businesses, they care about their bottom line, their, their sales and their roas. But if you look deeper and the more you get to know the client, you can figure out what they care about, you know, besides that. So, like with Terry, for example, I know he is really, really great at actually producing creative. That's one of the things that his company does. So whenever we work together, I know it's not just about me report reporting on, you know, purchases and cost per purchase, but let's dig into the creative and what messaging is really resonating with the audience and what specific messaging is driving those purchases, what messaging is not driving purchases or engagement or things like that. Landing pages. I know Terry's company also produces different landing pages and stuff on websites, so taking a deep dive into the analytics of that is also, I know, really important to him. And so it's just about knowing. Knowing your client and going beyond just the, the, you know, the sales and, and the roas.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: Well, and one thing I would also say too, you know, I. I've had a great time, you know, working with Natalie, giving her trouble and, and whatnot. But, you know, that human connection is, Is essential. Right? So, you know, especially from an account management standpoint, if you have an account manager, whether it's within an agency or, you know, some other, you know, partnership or vendor, it's. It's so important. And so, like, when we have our weekly calls, I really look forward to the weekly calls, not only for the information, but for the interpersonal connection. Because, I mean, that's why we're here, right? I don't think it's. It's a fluke, and I don't think it's. It's just something that, you know, we should take for granted that the people we get to work with, in whatever capacity we're in that situation with them at that time and place. I think for some, for some reason. And it's really nice when you have something beyond just the business metrics at hand, you know what I mean?
I have one example where I did a brand strategy project and you know, I was dealing with the CEO and the VP of Sales Prime Arrow. But I said, you know, what I'd really like to do because this was all about sort of their internal brand people working in silos and that connection, if you will, that alignment wasn't there. So I did 60 some odd interviews with all of the different people, this different internal stakeholders, some external stakeholders. But again, huge deep dive that I would have never gained the insights that I, that I did had I not had access and was able to do those types of interviews. So I think it's, it's so important.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: Oh absolutely. And you know, kudos to you for taking the time to do those 60 stakeholder, you know, interviews because that's no small feat or no small investment in time. And it probably was enlightening not just for you and building out that brand strategy, but probably for the internal organization and having very honest realizations about where they are feeling similarly about the brand or their, you know, personal endeavors and where they are not in alignment and where there's a need for some conversation. And you know, something that I think a lot about is that interpersonal relationship that you referred to, Terry, is critical and that may be a little bit harder in the world of Zoom or a Google Meets where everything is done virtually and you're not in the same room every single day. And so being able to know your client on a deeper level can be a bit more challenging or, you know, you need to invest even more time. So beyond obviously the time constraints of things like 60 different interviews, what are some common challenges that you both have seen and tapping into your clients, decision makers and their business and what are some ways that you've been able to navigate and overcome those challenges?
[00:07:37] Speaker C: I would say outside of the time constraint is often there are multiple decision makers and, you know, stakeholders involved that you might not talk to day to day for. So for example, you might have a client and that's the person that you mostly, you know, email with and maybe have like a weekly or bi weekly call, but they have a boss too. They have a team, they have people that they have to turn around and report things back to.
So the more that you can ask those questions to your client about like, hey, what do you, what do you have on your plate? This week. What do you need to report out or present on? If you ask those questions, it's going to allow a much more productive conversation between you and your client. And also, I think, don't be afraid to even say, hey, like, would you want to include, you know, so and so on? Maybe just a monthly call doesn't have to be as often as you and I speak, but really encouraging. That collaboration, I think, is extremely helpful. And everyone knows the game of telephone, and no one can, you know, communicate everything back 100%, perfectly 100% of the time. So if there are more stakeholders involved, I think pushing for that communication, at least on a monthly or quarterly basis, whatever you can get is really, really helpful.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think what I would add to Natalie's comments is, at least for me, I find that vulnerability is a strength. And a lot of folks don't necessarily want to make themselves vulnerable. Particularly I come in as a consultant and sometimes people opening up to some questions that they might find, well, this might reveal that we're not doing something or it's going to make me look bad or any of that. And I always try to, you know, preface that with, look, you know, I, in no way am I judging you, but the more honest you can be and the more open we can have communication and collaboration, the better off this partnership is going to be. And, you know, it's. It goes back to, we concentrate so much on the business stuff, but the human, you know, interpersonal things, empathy, vulnerability, all of the squishy things are huge, hugely important, and they totally foster collaboration. That's, you know, if I was a closed book or, you know, acted like I knew everything, and Natalie might not feel like she can come forward with a suggestion about, hey, have you thought about this? Or, you know, it's like, oh, you know, either we have or we haven't, but the fact that she's ringing potential suggestions and things from her perspective is a great part of the relationship, and we should all have that. And so, you know, I do think that is really important.
Right.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: Go ahead, Natalie.
[00:10:35] Speaker C: Oh, I was just going to say that's such a great point. And it's always easier, duh, to deliver, like, good news and positivity. But what if something's not doing as well? We need to be able to be honest and transparent.
And if you have a previous, you know, relationship of being vulnerable and leading with empathy and things like that, it makes those tougher conversations easier and more productive because you have already broken down that layer of, like, nervousness and, you know, Disappointment. And you have. You have that trust that's already been built.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, trust itself is such incredible.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: It really is.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: And that's. Until you've built that trust. Those vulnerabilities are hard to break open because to your point, I mean, they don't want to look like they're. They're weak or like they don't want to look like they don't have it all together in front of their supervisors or things like that. But once you've built that mutual trust that you each have each other's best interests in mind, then I think that's where real progress is made.
[00:11:38] Speaker B: I've walked into so many situations as sort of the outsider, you know, and as a consultant, it's easy to just go in and scorch earth. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, you're not doing this. You're not doing this. And I always try to avoid that. But I've been on the other side of the table as the client or an employee at a company and a consultant comes in and it's, you know, they're telling you all the things that you should be doing, blah, blah, blah. And there are certain things where it's like, you know, we've tried many different things, or we've. We've thought about this, but here's why we haven't been able to do it. And so, you know, again, sort of the empathetic approach of, you know, I want to understand where they are in their situation and how they're feeling and what the nuances are and the context with. In which they're operating, because I certainly don't know that until I ask a lot of questions. But I never want to assume or come across as condescending because that's counterproductive. And one, you wouldn't want to do that, but it's not going to lead to the places where you really hopefully will go with the collaboration and the relationship.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Absolutely. And, you know, I'm sure in your role as a consultant, Terry and Natalie, certainly on the agency side, the goal is always to feel like an extension. Extension of the client's team and to just naturally, you know, that you're. You're there to be able to support their goals. So, Natalie, I'd love to hear from you on what does it mean to you to be a true extension of a client team and not just using it as like an industry phrase of, you know, kind of tokenizing our work with the client.
[00:13:25] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Not to make it some corporate jargon. That we hear all the time.
I think if I had to sum it up, it's just putting yourself in their shoes. They are not just a client that you talk to on a monthly or weekly basis, but you're really getting to know them and you're putting yourself in their position. So I'll, I'll sit and I'll think, okay, what is it? And I know I spoke about this before, but what is it that they have to turn around and deliver on or work on for their boss or their internal team? And how can I make that easier for them? How can I work on that with them? So it's not just something, you know, Koegi branded that I'm handing, you know, to the client, but it's something that I can help them deliver on to whoever they need to deliver things to. So really trying to put myself in their position because I think that is being a part of any team as, you know, the role and you know, the players on the team and you know, what they have on their back and on their shoulders. So it's the same kind of in the work, you know, workplace and corporate world as well.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think to your point, it's when you know more about them and know what they want and expect and those kinds of things, you can be a lot more proactive in what you are delivering and how you're approaching it. And that fosters far more, you know, solution oriented things as a partner than waiting for somebody to ask you for something, you know?
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Sure, absolutely. And actually building on that, I think that leads into this idea of how do you tailor the conversation with your clients, but also the strategies and solutions that you put forward based on those needs that you're hearing from the client and that will ultimately lead to better business results. And you know, Terry, something I saw on your company website was the, I believe it's the six to fix marketing framework strategy that you use. I'd love to hear just a little bit more about what that means to you and how it plays into clients information gathering and ultimately delivering, you know, a great solution.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: Sure. Well, you know, having done this for so long, you know, I just turned 29 and so I've been doing this, you know, about eight or 10 years now. But what's funny is no matter what business I've either, you know, worked for from a consulting or a coaching standpoint or as an employee, most companies have the same problems, you know, especially from a marketing standpoint. So I kept, you know, thinking about this and it's like, well, wait a minute, how do we, how do we not just start from scratch every time? You know, certainly your creative and all of that is going to be, you know, accustomed to whatever company.
But the various things I kept coming across, you know, these six things that most companies, at least, particularly smaller to mid sized companies, don't necessarily have a handle on in terms of documented plans or a strategy around it. So the brand, you know, everybody's really interested in building a brand, right? That's, that's a valuable thing that company's trying to build. But if you ask a lot of companies, do you have a brand strategy? No, probably not.
Customers, we all want more customers, more revenues, but we don't necessarily have a plan of how we're acquiring the customers or how we're retaining the customers.
Then the other four are offering what are the products that we're selling. I've had many customers where their primary product is something that they're not necessarily leading with. It's more of like a secondary offering. Right. So how you're positioning that, how you're selling it, communication, sales and management are the other three pieces. So I use this framework, whether it's, you know, more overtly or, you know, implicitly is sort of a way to kind of go, okay, marketing can and should affect these six pieces, which will affect outcomes. But ultimately companies want to grow and they want to create value. So, you know, if you build those six pieces, they're going to foster that growth and that value creation.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. I love that philosophy, that theory, and I think you're right that even from the agency side on the building media strategies, all of those come into play. We don't always talk about all those pieces very explicitly, especially when we figure out what the client's really latching onto and what's their personal pet project of the day. Right. But knowing all those things are consistently underpinning the business is critical. And one area that I'd love to dive in a little bit deeper in with you, Natalie, is the that customer understanding. Because not only are our clients beholden to other stakeholders within their organization, they become the heroes once they really deeply understand their customer base and predict those needs of what they're needing so that their business thrives. So how do you use the same energy and thinking to be able to go beyond just knowing your client, but understanding their customer base just as deeply to foster that external relationship between the brand and the customer?
[00:18:58] Speaker C: Yeah, well, you know, marketing and coaggy says this all the time, but you have to know the customer and the audience. And that is what's gonna, you know, define your marketing strategy. I think, you know, a lot of clients and brands these days can get, you know, sold on like the big flashy things that are new. So if it's like TikTok or a new type of, you know, TikTok ad or, or unit or even Netflix, when Netflix started saying, okay, we're going to do ads now just like everybody else, that's a really big flashy name. Everyone has Netflix. Everyone loves Netflix. You know, I've had to have that conversation a lot with clients, like, oh, just because Netflix offers advertising now I want to do it. And then we have to take a step back and say, well, is your audience, is your customer a on Netflix or are they actually doing, you know, the ads version or is it the type of customer that's paying the extra dollars to avoid the ads such as myself? You know, so we really, you really have to know, have to know the audience in order to determine that marketing strategy and be successful. Same thing with TikTok being so flashy. Not everyone's audience is, is on TikTok. You know, you have clients, maybe who you're targeting is an older demographic and they're just not on the app or maybe they downloaded it because, you know, their, their kids, grandkids, nieces, nephews send them videos from time to time, but they're not consistently scrolling.
So super, super important to know that that customer and audience and we on the agency side, you know, luckily have so many tools that we can use in terms of research and finding that audience. But the good old fashioned way is just talking to your client and asking them questions. They're, they're the experts on their brand and on their business. They have their own, you know, market research and internal data that they have that's super, super helpful for us to identify that audience. So just staying curious, asking as many questions as possible. And for me, I like to ask about other tactics or efforts that they're doing because marketing is like a tree. I always picture it like a tree and there's so many different limbs, different aspects of marketing. It's really so huge and it's changing all the time. So just because, you know, we on the agency side have one bucket of their marketing doesn't mean that the client's not doing, you know, some other efforts with an internal team or something like that. And knowing what they're doing so that we can complement it with our efforts is also super, super helpful. So I always like to ask you know, what else is. Is going on in their marketing world outside of, you know, the partnership with Kawaii.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: You brought up a really salient point. And I was thinking about this prior to, you know, us actually doing this recording. But marketing, I feel, is probably one of the most misunderstood things in business. And, you know, it's. It has so many tentacles or so many branches, like you said, Natalie. And, you know, in my role. And this again, goes back to the client connection and vulnerability and all of those things, because sometimes I'll be dealing with obviously really smart, sophisticated business people, but perhaps marketing isn't their area of expertise. Right. Or in the case of, you know, if they do have an internal marketing department, you know, understanding what they're doing in, you know, in addition to whatever it is we might be tackling. But I feel like, you know, back to the creative you mentioned, you know, we do some creative, you know, whether it's landing pages or ads or whatever.
And I usually try to stay more on the strategy side, but a lot of our clients can't necessarily get the creative done. So that's where we'll come in and we'll do it. But, you know, so many people just want to lead with the creative, get the ads out there, get the SEO, get the website, you know, all the, all the tactical execution. But we need to step back and go, okay, back to the goals and objectives. What are you trying to do? How do we build a strategy to support those? And then how do we develop the tactics to support that strategy? And so, you know, again, I feel like it's.
Some people just want to sort of put the cart before the horse and just get stuff out there.
[00:23:22] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And you're helping build that system of accountability. This is what you told me initially that you wanted for your business. We can put creative out there, but it has to start a step higher to figure out, like, what's the message going to be that's going to drive the business outcome? What's going to best resonate with your clients or your customers? What are your competitors doing? You know, how are you going to differentiate your product or service from what they're doing? How build that differentiation and that accountability is needed. And that's why it's important to build those relationships with consultants or agencies just to have that totally open conversation. It's unbiased opinion of, hey, this is what I'm seeing. I totally understand what you're seeing on the internal side, but have you thought about it from this perspective? And I think that does build Those long term future looking partnerships that you are thinking about the longevity rather than just the short term wins. So Terri, I'd love to hear from you on how do you build on the knowledge of your clients and your customers over time so that you are nurturing those long lasting relationships and helping them maintain a flexible mindset?
[00:24:42] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I have some clients that I've worked for years, you know, worked with for years. Sometimes it's off and on, sometimes it's consistent, sometimes it's, you know, a project that might be a year long project.
But generally speaking, even if I, if I end up not working for them, I still maintain a relationship with them beyond that.
And you know, I, I think the whole consultative approach is, is a valuable one so that if, you know, if you just want somebody to execute some ads for you and they just go do the work and shut up kind of thing, you know, that's fine.
That's, that's not us. But if, you know, for instance, if Natalie wasn't coming forward with a more consultative approach in asking questions and offering suggestions and me being open to that, we're not going to have nearly the, you know, the good relationship and the, I think the beneficial to the business relationship that we have. So I always try to keep it from the standpoint of, look, I'm here to help you, but I'm also here, I don't want to say push back, but sometimes, sometimes it's pushing back, sometimes it's telling them things that they don't want to hear. But like any relationship, it's give and take and sometimes you have to hear things that you might not want to hear.
And so I try to just keep it very honest and hopefully add as much value as I can. And that's, you know, primarily it.
[00:26:20] Speaker C: Yeah. To add to that, I know we kind of have similar experiences in this with, you know, agency side and then, you know, being a consultant where we can bring our expertise because we do work with so many different clients across different verticals and oftentimes people that are, you know, working direct for brand, maybe they've spent their whole career there or they've only been in that industry, they're the expert in that. But they don't, you know, have the larger perspective about other, other industries. And so that's a really big benefit with a consultant or an agency is we have so much more knowledge and tools kind of in our belt that we can, you know, share with our clients. And that also I think builds. I know we were talking about trust, but sharing Sharing that information and having that dialogue, you know, build so much, so much of that trust for sure.
Another thing too, because I know we've been talking a lot about relationships and trust is, I think a big one for me is consistency. That's probably the biggest aspect I think for trust is because you can be like fabulous one week and have great client service and follow up with everything, but then if the next few weeks you're mia, the trust is just not there. So building that consistency helps your client know that they really can rely on you and you are accountable. So little like tangent on, on trust, but for me I think consistency is the biggest thing.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. And that's something I hear repeatedly on brands that I've worked on that, you know, they've struggled with other agency relationships in the past because that consistency wasn't there.
And it may be that that trust wasn't built early on and therefore the consistency was difficult to build up. Like it's definitely a two way, you know, relationship. You have to have information sharing from the client side and also proactivity from the agency consultant side. So to wrap up the conversation, I'd love to leave our listeners with a practical tip about the importance of having an emotional over transactional relationship. So, you know, a lot of what we talked about here is leading with that empathy, leading with that trust. What are some actionable steps you would say are key to building that meaningful client conversation that's not just a transactional. I need you to deliver X, Y and Z by these dates.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: Natalie, you want to go first or.
[00:28:57] Speaker C: I can go first.
And I, I don't want to be a broken record here, but to stay on theme, I think the biggest tip is to ask questions. B. Curious. When you are curious, it shows that you care. And I know every relationship is different. So some clients just might not prefer to share, you know, personal things and that is totally fine. Ask questions about their day. How, how's your workload this week? Do you have anything huge going on? A big QBR or business meeting? And people are always more comfortable either talking about themselves or their life and what's going on.
And it just shows, it shows that you care and it makes the conversation much more productive as well. So stay curious, ask good questions whether it's about, you know them personally or you know the business and what they have going on. And either way it's, it's going to be successful.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just said. And I, you know, for me, if I'm, if I'm working with somebody in town. I will always try to get together with them for lunch, for coffee, whatever it is, and hopefully start off the relationship where we're not even talking about business. We're talking about just whatever, just being human beings together. And you know, when I, as I was coming up in the business, you know, back when you guys were, well, you weren't even here yet, everything was all about hard skills. Right? Right. There was no, there was no soft skills. There was no, you know, emotional, you know, intelligence versus iq, you know, it was all just hard business stuff. Right.
But now, you know, there's such an emphasis on these other things. And I think if we can get people, you know, either as consultants or agencies or, you know, even co workers, when you get on that more human level, it doesn't mean you have to be best buddies, but when you find some common ground as human beings, they're usually going to be more open and direct and collaborative when they trust you and they, you know, to, to Natalie's point, people like to talk about themselves. They like to connect and, and sometimes that goes beyond just the business stuff. And you know, for me, I was trying to win this account and the guys in Arizona, he's got a company and I'm like, look, you know, I'm, I'm on the next flight out there if we, if we're going to do something, because as a remote, you know, doing remote, that's great, but you still can't necessarily replace that face to face, you know. And so I, to me, I always try to do that. But again, we're used to zoom now and you can certainly connect that way as well.
[00:31:51] Speaker A: Absolutely.
Well, thank you both so much for your time. I, I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. I think that there's lots of good takeaways here, but if I were just to summarize it, I mean, it's leading with just having a human perspective, you know, leading with empathy, leading with, you know, finding personal connection, staying curious. And I think all those things are, are key to building those relationships. And hopefully some of our listeners will be able to apply that to their day to days as well. So, again, really appreciate you guys being here. Thanks to. Thanks, Natalie, and we'll see you next time.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:32:29] Speaker C: Absolutely.
